Inspired, not "copied", which is what most if not all gacha games, including Honkai: Star Rail, do. No, just because a character has graffiti themes, doesn't mean they have anything to do with Rappa.
Believe it or not, many games get inspired from the same sources. Kuro Games loves anime/game references, including Devil May Cry (Series) and Nier (Series) (which is why they collaborated with both for Punishing: Gray Raven).
Inspired, not "copied", which is what most if not all gacha games, including Honkai: Star Rail, do. No, just because a character has graffiti themes, doesn't mean they have anything to do with Rappa.
Believe it or not, many games get inspired from the same sources. Kuro Games loves anime/game references, including Devil May Cry (Series) and Nier (Series) (which is why they collaborated with both for Punishing: Gray Raven).
If they took most the characters abilities, looks, characteristics and characterization would you still call it 'inspired' and not 'copying'? Because most people don't. Iuno is clearly copying the whole Ishtar sthick from FGO, Augusta is basically Mavuika from Genshin down to summoning a mount during ult, everyone knows Chisa is based on Matoi Ryuuko from Kill la Kill down to the scissor sword and now you have Asuna (Blue Archive) mixed with Air Gear and Rappa.
Considering how you're still forcing yourself to think about Wuthering Waves characters in terms of MiHoYo ones or other games already tells me a lot. You're still saying they "took" despite none of the characters being 1:1 of another character. Come on now.
You don't even bother trying with Iuno, you just say she's "copying" the "whole Ishtar schtick". Iuno is a clear example of inspiration and how to pay homage to a character without copying and not changing anything.
You immediately jump back to saying that Augusta is like Mavuika just because she "summons an entity from the sky during an ult". Summoning things from the sky for an attack isn't a MiHoYo thing, for one, and for two, it's not even Augusta's ult.
Chisa is actually based on a very popular black serafuku anime characters trope with characters like Enma Ai and Kanoe Yuuko (post #10393348) for appearance and Nanami: Startrail from their previous game. Saying she's based on only Matoi Ryuuko just because of a scissor blade that only makes up the basic attacks part of her kit is some serious reduction of her character. The whole point of Chisa, and the region of her patch, is a big anime reference. It tells me you haven't played the game or haven't seen anything about her and don't know anything so you can only attempt to criticise based on shallow information. Or maybe you do play the game and just turned your brain off during it. I don't know.
Believe it or not, wearing a white shirt and skirt doesn't mean someone is Asuna (Blue Archive). And again you're back to saying "Rappa", and again I say, just because a character has graffiti themes, doesn't mean they have anything to do with Rappa.
This kind of mindset is so deeply entrenched in the stupid tribalism that affects gacha gaming communities that people like you see one thing as a copy of another thing, and who is being copied depends on who is popular at the time, so you think any character with graffiti themes is automatically "Rappa".
There's an inherent difference between "copying" and "inspiration". "Copying" is like MiHoYo once taking entire frames from Sousou No Frieren and Black Clover among other seasonal anime for a character trailer of one of their other games to the point of needing to remake an entire trailer over it. "Inspiration" is when you have something with a clear reference to another and what drives innovation. So it's a good thing that actual creative minds don't have such narrow world views like you do. Why do you think crossover fanart exists between characters that are alike in themes, as a whole?
You don't even bother trying with Iuno, you just say she's "copying" the "whole Ishtar schtick". That's a clear example of inspiration.
Because that's the whole thing. She's a copy of the whole Ishtar schtick, animation, weapon, clothing, hairstyle and characterization. If you drew a character using different colors and minor alterations at what point does it count as different character?
WRS said:
You immediately jump back to saying that Augusta is like Mavuika just because she "summons an entity from the sky during an ult". This isn't a MiHoYo thing, for one, and for two, it's not even her ult.
It is important because the animation where she slams down from the Gryphon was almost identical with Mavuika's dive attack animation. 'It's not even her ult'? No, it's actually included in the chain attack leading to the fully charged ult.
WRS said:
Chisa is actually based on a very popular black serafuku anime characters trope with characters like Enma Ai and Kanoe Yuuko (post #10393348) for appearance and Nanami: Startrail from their previous game. Saying she's based on only Matoi Ryuuko just because of a scissor blade that only makes up the basic attacks part of her kit is some serious reduction of her character. The whole point of Chisa, and the region of her patch, is a big anime reference. It tells me you haven't played the game or haven't seen anything about her and don't know anything so you can only attempt to criticise based on shallow information.
Do I need to post my WuWa account to make you see I've played the game? Players regarded the whole Chisa patch storyline as 'filler' because of how underwhelming it is compared to the previous one because it's so flat the whole thing almost count as 'dating sim in closed dimension' kind of bullshit. It's a very shallow kind of adaptation for whatever 'school mystery anime' you thought it was.
WRS said:
Believe it or not, wearing a white shirt and skirt doesn't mean someone is Asuna (Blue Archive). And again you're back to saying "Rappa", and again I say, just because a character has graffiti themes, doesn't mean they have anything to do with Rappa.
This kind of mindset is so deeply entrenched in the stupid tribalism that affects gacha gaming communities that people like you see one thing as a copy of another thing, and who is being copied depends on who is popular at the time, so you think any character with graffiti themes is automatically "Rappa".
Sure, sure. Blond long hair, blue necktie, white shirt, black skirt, purple eyes, whole different character (not). But people's recognition stands: How many characters in ANY games you know throws paintcans that explode in neonpunk graffiti explosions? Which other games has the whole 'girls in uniform shooting guns' theme? How many games has the 'blond long hair, white shirt, black skirt, blue necktie' female character?
WRS said:
There's an inherent difference between "copying" and "inspiration". "Copying" is like MiHoYo once taking entire frames from Sousou No Frieren and Black Clover among other seasonal anime for a character trailer of one of their other games to the point of needing to remake an entire trailer over it. "Inspiration" is when you have something with a clear reference to another and what drives innovation. So it's a good thing that actual creative minds don't have such narrow world views like you do.
If that's your definition of 'copying' then we need to go back to the Iuno = Ishtar argument. If someone copied a character, re-drew certain parts, recolored certain parts and put a different name at what point it stopped being a copy and at what point it's becoming a new character? At what percentage you can call 'copying' something 'being inspired from'? 90%? 75%? 50%???
My point is Wuthering Waves does nothing innovative at this character trailer but to sell a character whose 'origins' is a mishmash of previously popular IPs. Yes, a frankensteined chimera is innovative if you looked at the concept as a whole but not if you know where the parts are coming from.
The only thing you're proving to me is that you don't actually know what inspiration is, and that you can only see it as "copying". The two are very close together and can be hard to differentiate, so I can't fully blame you that you would feel that a game you probably enjoy less "copies" from things you enjoy more. That's why I tried to point out that similar themes and paying homage doesn't necessarily mean that something is a copy. It's like if you were to say most characters with katanas "copy" Vergil.
Furthermore, you sort of allude to lacking substance here by trying to talk about opinions about Chisa's patch being "filler" or not when this doesn't have anything to do with that. This is about characters and the difference between copying and inspiration, and the only relevant point about Chisa's story is that it's a big anime reference. It doesn't matter how well or how poorly it was done.
I realise there's not much I can say beyond what I already have, because at some point it will be a repetitive game of pointing out how characters either look similar, have similar themes and are inspired from the same source or even off of each other, but you still claim that it's just a "copy" and are seemingly incapable of believing that they can be inspired. If you think Iuno "copies" Ishtar, then I don't know what to tell you. If you think Augusta's dive attack is "almost identical" to Mavuika's ultimate, I don't even know where to start, when that's just patently false. It's worse that you think that if you play the game and don't realise this.
All of this is further excaerbated by the end of your post when you try to fix this into a quantitative percentage. Inspiration is a deeply nuanced creative concept and it's not easy to get, and it's easier to simply call things cheap copies and bash them, which is what leads to... well, pointless arguments like this.
Also, things like this:
Sure, sure. Blond long hair, blue necktie, white shirt, black skirt, purple eyes, whole different character (not). But people's recognition stands: How many characters in ANY games you know throws paintcans that explode in neonpunk graffiti explosions? Which other games has the whole 'girls in uniform shooting guns' theme? How many games has the 'blond long hair, white shirt, black skirt, blue necktie' female character?
[..]
If that's your definition of 'copying' then we need to go back to the Iuno = Ishtar argument. If someone copied a character, re-drew certain parts, recolored certain parts and put a different name at what point it stopped being a copy and at what point it's becoming a new character? At what percentage you can call 'copying' something 'being inspired from'? 90%? 75%? 50%???
Are just mind boggling. Are people not allowed to do similar things? Innovation has heavy basis in inspiration. A lot of things out there start from one thing and build upon existing ideas to form new ones. But you wouldn't call any of them "copies". It's convenient to do because hating Wuthering Waves is cool right now. Lynae's design is considerably generic enough. You're a platinum user, you can go look up how ridiculous you sound trying so hard to equate this design to being an Asuna knock off.
If, however, I have to respond directly than to the spirit of the discussion:
How many characters in ANY games you know throws paintcans that explode in neonpunk graffiti explosions? Which other games has the whole 'girls in uniform shooting guns' theme?
Since you said "any" games: for the former, many, many skins are like this, within MiHoYo itself, and outside of gacha gaming in general. And the latter, I don't know why this is even a question. Let's not pretend that Blue Archive invented shooting guns in a school uniform. I would really hate if that's the angle we're going for here.
The only thing you're proving to me is that you don't actually know what inspiration is, and that you can only see it as "copying". The two are very close together and can be hard to differentiate, so I can't fully blame you that you would feel that a game you probably enjoy less "copies" from things you enjoy more. That's why I tried to point out that similar themes and paying homage doesn't necessarily mean that something is a copy. It's like if you were to say most characters with katanas "copy" Vergil.
Furthermore, you sort of allude to lacking substance here by trying to talk about opinions about Chisa's patch being "filler" or not when this doesn't have anything to do with that. This is about characters and the difference between copying and inspiration, and the only relevant point about Chisa's story is that it's a big anime reference. It doesn't matter how well or how poorly it was done.
I realise there's not much I can say beyond what I already have, because at some point it will be a repetitive game of pointing out how characters either look similar, have similar themes and are inspired from the same source or even off of each other, but you still claim that it's just a "copy" and are seemingly incapable of believing that they can be inspired. If you think Iuno "copies" Ishtar, then I don't know what to tell you. If you think Augusta's dive attack is "almost identical" to Mavuika's ultimate, I don't even know where to start, when that's just patently false. It's worse that you think that if you play the game and don't realise this.
All of this is further excaerbated by the end of your post when you try to fix this into a quantitative percentage. Inspiration is a deeply nuanced creative concept and it's not easy to get, and it's easier to simply call things cheap copies and bash them, which is what leads to... well, pointless arguments like this.
Also, things like this:
Are just mind boggling. Are people not allowed to do similar things? Innovation has heavy basis in inspiration. A lot of things out there start from one thing and build upon existing ideas to form new ones. But you wouldn't call any of them "copies". It's convenient to do because hating Wuthering Waves is cool right now. Lynae's design is considerably generic enough. You're a platinum user, you can go look up how ridiculous you sound trying so hard to equate this design to being an Asuna knock off.
If, however, I have to respond directly than to the spirit of the discussion:
Since you said "any" games: for the former, many, many skins are like this, within MiHoYo itself, and outside of gacha gaming in general. And the latter, I don't know why this is even a question. Let's not pretend that Blue Archive invented shooting guns in a school uniform. I would really hate if that's the angle we're going for here.
Yep, here we go with personal attacks of 'you don't know inspiration' and a lot of diverting from the point that Chisa's character concept is (yet another) hodgepodge of things from different series. YOU are the one who brought the point 'did you not play the game or what' and I replied with exactly what you want: the point of her whole patch is 'big anime reference' so you say or to be exact 'school mystery' theme which a lot of people doesn't like. How it tied with with Chisa's appearance was yet another thing (but you brought it first) (and she's actually a mix of Fatal Frame protagonist yanno, the theme being 'school horror story' and whatever). I'm already stopped at the Matoi Ryuko allegations because the scissor blade (complete with the unfolding grip, mind you) and not bringing her entire moveset which by itself is another copy from Ellen Joe and Monster Hunter Charge Blade.
Inspiration was NOT deeply nuanced creative process. You got an idea looking at something, doing something, listening to something, pondering something, it's inspiration.
But if you try to recreate something that already exist in another form? That's copying. That's why I put quantitative quality to it; if somebody draw a picture based on sunrise? That's not copying. But if somebody redraw that picture of sunrise? What's that called if not copying? How much alike are those two pictures? Is it significantly different because the artist used their own style, their own interpretation and their own brushstrokes? People are allowed to do similar things, yes, but if you fished from the bucket somebody already filled their fished fish in that's not fishing, that's just stealing.
And no, you haven't respond to the 'spirit of the discussion'.
WRS said:
Since you said "any" games: for the former, many, many skins are like this, within MiHoYo itself, and outside of gacha gaming in general. And the latter, I don't know why this is even a question. Let's not pretend that Blue Archive invented shooting guns in a school uniform. I would really hate if that's the angle we're going for here.
Since you said 'many, many' skins you should name the exact example(s). There's a lot, right?
If you want to take comments about the points you're making personally, then that's on you.
I don't know where you get the idea that I'm "diverting" any kind of conversation here. I am the one who twice pointed out that Chisa's entire character, region and patch were intended to be a big anime reference. We aren't disagreeing there. Where I disagree is that you reduced her character down to only "Matoi Ryuuko copy". So you aren't even consistent on your own points, jumping from saying just that, to us being on the same wavelength about her character.
I will say though that I indeed, in the post before the edit, suggested that you hadn't played the game to know enough. I since edited it to include "or maybe you turned your brain off during the story, I don't know". While I still respectfully disagree that this argument/discussion/whatever has anything to do with the story, I do get why you brought it up as proof you played the story and that's your opinion about it, so I recognise that the angle I used here was in poor form. That's my fault.
Here's the thing though: once again, you are trying your hardest to equate same-source inspirations to "Wuthering Waves copies MiHoYo" by bringing up Ellen Joe. Just say you don't like Wuthering Waves, I'll understand. I see this all the time that people think MiHoYo invented things and therefore everyone else "copies" from them. I already pointed out that Kuro Games has used the idea of a sawblade before (and before MiHoYo did, mind you), in their previous game with Nanami: Startrail, but it was convenient enough for you to ignore that so you could get back to saying "look at how they copied MiHoYo!" some more. They got the idea (this is inspiration by the way, not copying) from Monster Hunter. Ellen Joe isn't even in the picture.
You got an idea looking at something, doing something, listening to something, pondering something, it's inspiration.
But if you try to recreate something that already exist in another form? That's copying. That's why I put quantitative quality to it; if somebody draw a picture based on sunrise? That's not copying. But if somebody redraw that picture of sunrise? What's that called if not copying? How much alike are those two pictures? Is it significantly different because the artist used their own style, their own interpretation and their own brushstrokes? People are allowed to do similar things, yes, but if you fished from the bucket somebody already filled their fished fish in that's not fishing, that's just stealing.
This is the crux of today's problem, your definition of them. The issue is that the two are similar, but you refuse to even think about the idea that two things might've been inspired by the same source, which is what I've been saying from the start. No matter how many times you reply here, in some fashion or form, you immediately try to insert a MiHoYo character and point and say "look, Wuthering Waves definitely copied that". Doesn't matter if it's been done before by someone else, or the same company earlier than MiHoYo. In that same vein, if everyone saw inspiration the same as this, then there would be no such thing as innovation. Everything is just cheap copies en masse. Genshin Impact is a Breath of the Wild copy. Zenless Zone Zero is a Honkai Impact 3rd copy. Arknights is a Bloons Tower Defense copy. But you would disagree if I were to say that genuinely, wouldn't you?
I agree with your extent using a sunrise as an analogy about this. But, speaking in terms of your analogy, half of what we're dealing here is two different artists looking at the same sunrise, being inspired by that, and drawing the sunrise in their own style; but because one artist has a bigger following than the other, when they come back, people point to the lesser artist and say they redraw that sunrise from the bigger artist's. The other half is just... well, it's a sunrise, obviously they're going to be similar.
By responding to the spirit of the discussion, I'm talking about copying vs inspiration. But sure, since you asked:
I trust this will be enough? These are five second searches, you know. I just want to make it clear that I'm performing searches and checking my information first before I respond. I would appreciate the same courtesy to be done in kind. Suggesting Blue Archive invented guns-in-uniforms or that other games don't have characters with graffiti themes, paint throwing, gun slinging or a mix of all three is not in good faith.
For the sake of a refresher, let's remember that this began with you calling Lynae "Air Gear + Rappa". Air Gear is valid, Rappa is not. Graffiti in a character does not mean "Rappa". They are wildly different characters that merely have a common ground in graffiti being their "thing to enjoy". Universe forbid someone has a hobby. Every single character that has graffiti is now a Rappa copy, according to your logic. Graffiti belongs to Rappa. No one else is allowed to have it.
Honestly, let's play on your turf, even. I want to know how you're seeing this and why you think that Wuthering Waves is specifically copying from other games and not just a common source betweeen each of these games. So let's say they are indeed copying and not just inspired by either each other or a common source. How do we change things?
Iuno (Wuthering Waves): You say she's just Ishtar (Fate). Not a homage, not an inspiration, copied. What can we do to create a character with Ancient Greece ties? I've also looked up your comments and saw you previously call Septimont a Natlan clone, even though they are inspired from different countries and cultures but simply have a common element of fighting. So we can't have tournaments, or if we can, how do we differentiate it from Natlan? How should the new Iuno compliment Augusta in their current sun/moon dynamic?
Augusta (Wuthering Waves): You say she has a "identical" (not similar, not inspired, identical) animation. What can be changed about it to make it unique?
Chisa (Wuthering Waves): Even if I give you this one, it's hard to say what can be done since she's just a big anime reference. So what can be done about her to make it more apparent that she's a "big anime reference"? How do we stop her from "copying" Matoi Ryuuko?
Lynae (Wuthering Waves): You say she's just Air Gear Asuna (Blue Archive) and Rappa. How can her design be changed and made more unique to avoid being called "Asuna"? Which part of her graffiti is similar to Rappa, and how can it be changed to be better?
Genuinely curious. I'm on the side that these are all broad inspirations from generic enough themes, but you say they aren't, so I imagine you have some feedback on how Wuthering Waves can improve its design direction to feel more unique.
I trust this will be enough? These are five second searches, you know. I just want to make it clear that I'm performing searches and checking my information first before I respond. I would appreciate the same courtesy to be done in kind. Suggesting Blue Archive invented guns-in-uniforms or that other games don't have characters with graffiti themes, paint throwing, gun slinging or a mix of all three is not in good faith and is more of an irrelevant test of my knowledge.
Sorry, most if ALL of them doesn't clear the category 'throwing paint canisters that explodes in neonpunk grafitti as skill' gameplay-wise. It's a very specific kind of graffiti, as you can see from the trailer itself, complete with small dots and whatnot, which was the problem in the first time. And I specify 'games', not 'series' so from there only Persona (and only specific iterations of it) and some of them fits (that's already counting the spin-off gacha games).
So much for that five second search and checking information before responding.
And to the point 'WuWa is copying MiHoYo': no, I never stated that they specifically copied Mihoyo. I don't see the beef between companies or fanbase: I just stated what's obvious, easily found facts from everybody's viewpoint.
Do not put arguments in my mouth.
Yes, I played PGR too, and I stopped playing January this year so I do know Nanami Startrail (which basically uses CB moveset anyway...do we need to argue which game invented 'slot sword into shield to turn into axe' first??? And how her moveset has SAED and Amp discharge cancel?). The ONLY move that needs to be argued is the Savage Axe which has been in Monster Hunter series since Generations (2016). The Ellen Joe allegations was because the 'open scissors, hold pose, and charge forward' move which is quite unique; is it not quite worth noting that these two characters, released only with one year difference has extremely similar moves?
If you still want to use the whole spiel 'can't differentiate inspired and copying' then insist 'WuWa and Hoyo was inspired from one source' then name that source, that's simple enough move to finish this argument.
1: who inspired both Iuno and Ishtar? 2: who inspired Augusta and Mavuika? 3: who inspired Lynae and Rappa?
A lot of my thoughts are contained in the post before yours, comment #2567232.
My bad that I misread and didn't see that you wanted examples of "throwing paint canisters that explodes in neonpunk grafitti as skill". I figured it would be better to talk about the thematics rather than the specifics since you suggested Lynae copies Rappa. But then, isn't this argument already flawed when Rappa doesn't throw paint canisters in the first place...? Her skill is swiping paint across the enemy with her blade and using a kuji-in to explode it. Similar final effect, different execution. So it's still not copying, and well... the character you're suggesting Lynae copies from doesn't even do this in the first place. These are also all games so they still fit. :shrug:
I don't have to put arguments in your mouth when that's pretty much the way you've been responding. I've just been picking "MiHoYo" because that's the prominent example you've been using. I'm well aware that you mentioned several copyrights, but you kept bringing up MiHoYo, even when some of these things have been done long before them.
The Ellen Joe allegations was because the 'open scissors, hold pose, and charge forward' move which is quite unique; is it not quite worth noting that these two characters, released only with one year difference has extremely similar moves?
I don't care which game did it first, all I want to clear up is that it is clearly inspiration, not a cheap copy, and Ellen Joe is wholly irrelevant here. We're not privy to this so we only see a "year of difference" but you would do well to remember that development cycles for these games are often planned several months to years in advance of each other.
If you still want to use the whole spiel 'can't differentiate inspired and copying' then insist 'WuWa and Hoyo was inspired from one source' then name that source, that's simple enough move to finish this argument.
1: who inspired both Iuno and Ishtar? 2: who inspired Augusta and Mavuika? 3: who inspired Lynae and Rappa?
I feel that I already have, but I'll reiterate not just my sources but also that I've been saying from the beginning that this is more than just other characters, it's entire thematics.
1: Shouldn't even be a question. I've said this already: Iuno is an homage and inspiration from Ishtar. There are very specifically clever references in Iuno to Ishtar that you will only get by comparing the characters.
2: Mavuika is a rehash of an old MiHoYo character, Murata Himeko. Augusta (Wuthering Waves) is inspired by the themes of Ancient Rome and Julius Caesar. A good part of her arc is even a nod to the Roman Senate.
3: Same thing here. Does it have to be a "who"? My point regarding these two is merely that they share the thematic of graffiti in their gameplay, and Lynae is not Asuna just because she wears a white shirt and a black skirt.
Honestly, let's play on your turf, even. I want to know how you're seeing this and why you think that Wuthering Waves is specifically copying from other games and not just a common source betweeen each of these games. So let's say they are indeed copying and not just inspired by either each other or a common source. How do we change things?
Iuno (Wuthering Waves): You say she's just Ishtar (Fate). Not a homage, not an inspiration, copied. What can we do to create a character with Ancient Greece ties? I've also looked up your comments and saw you previously call Septimont a Natlan clone, even though they are inspired from different countries and cultures but simply have a common element of fighting. So we can't have tournaments, or if we can, how do we differentiate it from Natlan? How should the new Iuno compliment Augusta in their current sun/moon dynamic?
Augusta (Wuthering Waves): You say she has a "identical" (not similar, not inspired, identical) animation. What can be changed about it to make it unique?
Chisa (Wuthering Waves): Even if I give you this one, it's hard to say what can be done since she's just a big anime reference. So what can be done about her to make it more apparent that she's a "big anime reference"? How do we stop her from "copying" Matoi Ryuuko?
Lynae (Wuthering Waves): You say she's just Air Gear Asuna (Blue Archive) and Rappa. How can her design be changed and made more unique to avoid being called "Asuna"? Which part of her graffiti is similar to Rappa, and how can it be changed to be better?
Genuinely curious. I'm on the side that these are all broad inspirations from generic enough themes, but you say they aren't, so I imagine you have some feedback on how Wuthering Waves can improve its design direction to feel more unique.
1: Make her have an actual bow instead of that floating disk. A transforming rod/staff into a bow is much more believeable and you can tie her into Athena instead of Selene (yes, her floating disk is actually a homage to Selene's chariot, much that people didn't realize.) That way she will still be able to tie with Augusta easily (since Athena IS the de facto Goddess of knowledge, war and protection, specifically cities, while Ishtar is the goddess of war and sexual love)
2: Augusta animation: she has a greatsword for fuck's sake. Her forte is simple magnetism. Why's she jumping all over the field summoning gryphon and whatnot? Simply make her detach all the weapons and use them like she's redoing her fights which made her the Augusta (attack multiple times while reforming the greatsword); that's more iconic than the 'whee samurai sword goes scwing schwing' bullshit.
3: Obviously change her weapon. The whole story was obviously based on Fatal Frame, so why not use Rectifier instead of a Broadblade?
4: Change haircolor and style into something else: since she's highly probably being Spectro and has the 'paint' gimmick nobody would blink if they have multicolored hair. A side-tie, shorter hairdo would also be easier to make a difference.
And no, those 'origins' doesn't answer the question why they still looks very much alike. Saying Iuno is a 'homage' to Ishtar does not clear her from being almost carbon copy.
About Mavuika and Augusta: let's calculate the math; There's no reason why Augusta have red hair, sun motifs, rising to leadership from a war game, being a leader of a nation fighting against enroaching enemies from the dark side, having a greatsword as a weapon, having a priestess that's moon-themed, and as the story goes enters the realm of the dead, reconvenes with those spirits of the dead, helped by them fighting with the corrupted spirit of past ruler and the fight ends up with them blowing a hole on something.
Even calculated easily that probability is one in few billions; that's not just in the realm of 'inspired' coincidence anymore.
And 3: well, since you're the one bringing the point of "speaking in terms of your analogy, half of what we're dealing here is two different artists looking at the same sunrise, being inspired by that, and drawing the sunrise in their own style; but because one artist has a bigger following than the other, when they come back, people point to the lesser artist and say they redraw that sunrise from the bigger artist's. The other half is just... well, it's a sunrise, obviously they're going to be similar." what's the 'original' sunrise these artists are looking at?
It's low hanging fruit at best but I did ask and you did answer, so I will give you these. Respectfully, it doesn't really change much, and I'm only now realising now that I've asked and you've responded that these are such grave nitpicks and we've really been arguing about "copying" and "inspiration" about such minor details about these characters that this whole thing looks completely pointless in retrospect, and even I've lost the plot, like how in trying to take Iuno in a "unique" direction, I've forgotten that my point was trying to be how to make Iuno very clearly an Ishtar homage/reference, without being seen as a "copy".
I think this entire time where our differences lie is that you want Wuthering Waves to try and "be more unique" and have less references to other materials/themes, and what I'm defending is that Wuthering Waves does sufficiently take things in their own way while still keeping the references they love so much without being specifically of the nature you're talking about. Which, sure, fine, to each their own. Lynae isn't Rappa or Asuna, Chisa isn't Ryuuko, Augusta isn't Mavuika, but they all share similar themes and/or designs. Iuno is "very cleverly" Ishtar. That's basically the sum of my points.
Because, looking at your improvement suggestions: for Lynae, for example, now I understand that you say "Rappa" on a very, very loose piece of similarity, which is an explosive paint. That's not a unique thing. If her hair colour is changed, she still has a uniform, ergo low hanging fruit. Iuno being wholly changed removes the potential of being seen as a "copy", but then there's zero inspiration left over at all, so it tracks, but also sort of doesn't. For Augusta, that would be a great idea to lean more into her actual forte. And for Chisa, I suppose it would work. Ultimately the difference is just removing one reference out of the many others though.
ETA
Re: Iuno origins
And no, those 'origins' doesn't answer the question why they still looks very much alike. Saying Iuno is a 'homage' to Ishtar does not clear her from being almost carbon copy.
I believe we will have to agree to disagree if we don't want to spend the next 24 hours on this. Most of Fate is takes on ancient characters with their own spice on top, and Iuno is an homage to Ishtar. They are sufficiently different but this level of inspiration to you is a copy, so there's nothing more that can be said here. In this regard, I would imagine you probably feel most characters are copies of other things, and this is probably not a Wuthering Waves specific thing. Inspiration is truly dead.
If I am inspired by the design and thematics of Paimon (Genshin Impact) and want to do something similar for my own game, that doesn't mean I am copying Genshin Impact. I just can't literally do the same thing, I have to change it up. That's what patents are for. Inspiration can be so similar that you might mistake it for a copy. The difference is largely about execution.
Re: Mavuika and Augusta similarities
About Mavuika and Augusta: let's calculate the math; There's no reason why Augusta have red hair, sun motifs, rising to leadership from a war game, being a leader of a nation fighting against enroaching enemies from the dark side, having a greatsword as a weapon, having a priestess that's moon-themed, and as the story goes enters the realm of the dead, reconvenes with those spirits of the dead, helped by them fighting with the corrupted spirit of past ruler and the fight ends up with them blowing a hole on something.
Even calculated easily that probability is one in few billions; that's not just in the realm of 'inspired' coincidence anymore.
This is no longer just about a single animation. If you want to talk story or motifs, I will have a lot of different opinions than I do now. But I've always mainly been focused on the appearance and gameplay of a character, nothing more. Moving goalposts to strengthen your point with things that this has never been about. If you want to go beyond that, respectfully, I'm not the best person to argue with as I am not familiar with either culture. There are videos, posts and people out there that would be better to discuss this about. But to bite on the rope, I will agree that their stories are very similar. I just have an inkling that this has to do with a cultural thing though and that's why they ended up with similar stories.
In light of this, I will have to rest my case, and will agree with you for now that, without a deeper understanding of either the development cycles, cultural references/reasons or anything on why this might be the case, I don't have a sufficient case to stand my ground with. It could very well be that Wuthering Waves copied Mavuika for Augusta for either just a bit or a lot, or there could be a different reason why the characters ended up similarly. I'm not knowledgeable enough to further comment.
This is no longer just about a single animation. If you want to talk story or motifs, I will have a lot of different opinions than I do now. But I've always mainly been focused on the appearance and gameplay of a character, nothing more. Moving goalposts to strengthen your point with things that this has never been about. If you want to go beyond that, respectfully, I'm not the best person to argue with as I am not familiar with either culture. There are videos, posts and people out there that would be better to discuss this about. But to bite on the rope, I will agree that their stories are very similar. I just have an inkling that this has to do with a cultural thing though and that's why they ended up with similar stories.
You're the one that brings "Augusta (Wuthering Waves) is inspired by the themes of Ancient Rome and Julius Caesar. A good part of her arc is even a nod to the Roman Senate." and I'm the one moving the goalpost? What point of 'a good part of her arc is even a nod of the Roman Senate', the card storytelling part and not like 80-90% of the rest of the arc?
We agree to disagree, then, that WuWa has a problem of non-unique looking character designs which may look like characters from other series, for any reasons (plagiarism, copying, inspired) and whatnot.
A lot of that after-the-fact has largely been about matching your moved goalposts. Even that little section I added was still about matching your moved goalpost. yet, themes isn't strictly story; her entire outfit is representative of that Ancient Roman/leader-as-a-warrior thematic. Guess who else fits that bill? It responds to your moved goalpost, while still holding true about what I've been focused on this entire time.
It's a shame really that this is how discussions about "copying" and "inspiration" turn out. On the bright side though, I hope that we will both sleep soundly tonight and continue to enjoy the games we do. I will not be pretzeling myself over who's copying and who's inspired (even though I will continue to disagree), and will instead celebrate great new characters and find the fun in how two different IPs can execute a concept, theme, story or design in their own fashion, regardless of if it really is meant to be "I saw how XYZ did it, here's how I'm going to do it" or not, whether it was from a recent game or from something old.
Inspiration and innovation is great, and ultimately, very different from real soulless copies out there that are much more apparent when you run into them. At large, some things may be similar, even outright copying and no longer really inspired. And for other things, it's just nitpicking to say that one small thing means "copy of XYZ". Everything, in some fashion or form, has already been done before. To settle the differences, you have to look at the execution. Augusta may be that good example of not enough difference. It's hard to do that with Iuno when she's meant to be an homage. And Chisa and Lynae are just one or two things for you out of their entire character, one of who isn't even released, that you've reduced them down to copies. But oh well.
A lot of that after-the-fact has largely been about matching your moved goalposts. Even that little section I added was still about matching your moved goalpost. yet, themes isn't strictly story; her entire outfit is representative of that Ancient Roman/leader-as-a-warrior thematic. Guess who else fits that bill? It responds to your moved goalpost, while still holding true about what I've been focused on this entire time.
It's a shame really that this is how discussions about "copying" and "inspiration" turn out. On the bright side though, I hope that we will both sleep soundly tonight and continue to enjoy the games we do. I will not be pretzeling myself over who's copying and who's inspired (even though I will continue to disagree), and will instead celebrate great new characters and find the fun in how two different IPs can execute a concept, theme, story or design in their own fashion, regardless of if it really is meant to be "I saw how XYZ did it, here's how I'm going to do it" or not, whether it was from a recent game or from something old.
Inspiration and innovation is great, and ultimately, very different from real soulless copies out there that are much more apparent when you run into them. At large, some things may be similar, even outright copying and no longer really inspired. And for other things, it's just nitpicking to say that one small thing means "copy of XYZ". Everything, in some fashion or form, has already been done before. To settle the differences, you have to look at the execution. Augusta may be that good example of not enough difference. It's hard to do that with Iuno when she's meant to be an homage. And Chisa and Lynae are just one or two things for you out of their entire character, one of who isn't even released, that you've reduced them down to copies. But oh well.
Wish you the best. 👍
My goalpost has been always one and the same: "If you have proof that this wasn't copying, take it out." But here you go with all the arguments about inspiration, origins, and whatnot and keep moving the argument outwards, even asking for 'how do YOU make this unit unique'.
Let's open the dictionary and see what 'homage' means in this case:
"Something created or done in honor, admiration, or celebration of someone or something." and in difference with 'copy' As verbs the difference between copy and homage is that copy is to produce an object identical to a given object while homage is to pay reverence to by external action.
So again, since nobody managed to answer the basic questions: how much you can copy the likeness of something under the guise of homage or inspiration? and at what point a character can be considered a direct copy, a homage, or inspired by other character? That question still goes unanswered, so maybe someone brighter than us can enlighten everybody else reading this.
Honestly, after 8 hours of this charade, I don't know what more you really want me to tell you. The whole point of discussing inspiration vs copying, and then bringing up better examples of where the game actually took inspiration from, but you wanting to see it as nothing more than copying, I'm running out of things to say. Derivative works, homages, references, all of it to you is "copying". I pointed out that some things like Lynae's uniform are just a generic as hell school uniform, nope, she's Asuna.
The operative word is identical. It's actually painful that this has devolved into whipping out a dictionary for the definition of words which doesn't even help your case. It's actually painful to see that after so many hours of this, it's as if nothing has landed at all. Your "follow up" is already a loaded question because you're using the word "copy" and suggesting that's what inspiration or homages are. What. At this point I just have to go scorched earth and say that every single thing brought up today is a copy because that is exactly what you are implying.
Lynae is a copy of someone who loves graffiti that wears a school uniform. Augusta is a copy of the real life Julius Caesar. Mavuika is a rip off of the company's previous character, who's a rip off of someone who's drunk. Come on. Do I have to ask you again to name your favourite gacha game character that is a good example of an inspiration instead of a "copy" the same way you think Wuthering Waves characters are?
This is kind of getting ridiculous. I thought we could bow out and agree to disagree. Nearly half a day and nearly 20 posts of back and forth because you are so obsessed about "copying" this "copying" that. Once again, inspiration is dead. Everything has already been done to hell and back, and if the only thing you can think of is that one thing similar - which is not the same as being identical - to another is "copying", man, save all the creatives who will never be able to create again.
The proof is already there in the video. - visual effect and mechanics that's almost unique to certain other character (remember that I asked for example from another unit and nobody can give it?) - the heavy Air Gear reference - a combination of trait (blonde long hair, gyaru look, school uniform, blue necktie)
A frankenstein of traits should be called what it is. Not original, but a copy of already existing ones.
"Visual effect and mechanics that's almost unique to a certain other character" -> Addressed: both of those characters have exploding paint, which is not a unique mechanic. That's all you could think of regarding them being similar. Then you brought up visual effects; ben-day dots and graffiti aren't a unique visual effect. But since there's two notable examples in games, this is why you say that one copied the other, instead of maybe thinking... they simply both looked up graffiti and saw something nice.
"Air Gear", was already discussed, and you're already contradicting yourself by calling it a reference. What do you think my point has been the entire time, lol? References and inspirations are a big selling point not just in Wuthering Waves but in games as a whole. It's nice to go "hey I recognise that", or "I liked when XYZ did ths too!".
It's ridiculous to the point of being funny now and I'm getting invested in continuing if this is the best that you can do; pick a few things that can also be seen in other games, doesn't necessarily have to be 1:1 just has to look enough, then point and say "THAT is all of A, B, and C combined, what a cheap copy".
Honestly, after 8 hours of this charade, I don't know what more you really want me to tell you. The whole point of discussing inspiration vs copying, and then bringing up better examples of where the game actually took inspiration from, but you wanting to see it as nothing more than copying, I'm running out of things to say. Derivative works, homages, references, all of it to you is "copying". I pointed out that some things like Lynae's uniform are just a generic as hell school uniform, nope, she's Asuna.
The operative word is identical. It's actually painful that this has devolved into whipping out a dictionary for the definition of words which doesn't even help your case. It's actually painful to see that after so many hours of this, it's as if nothing has landed at all. Your "follow up" is already a loaded question because you're using the word "copy" and suggesting that's what inspiration or homages are. What. At this point I just have to go scorched earth and say that every single thing brought up today is a copy because that is exactly what you are implying.
Lynae is a copy of someone who loves graffiti that wears a school uniform. Augusta is a copy of the real life Julius Caesar. Mavuika is a rip off of the company's previous character, who's a rip off of someone who's drunk. Come on. Do I have to ask you again to name your favourite gacha game character that is a good example of an inspiration instead of a "copy" the same way you think Wuthering Waves characters are?
This is kind of getting ridiculous. I thought we could bow out and agree to disagree. Nearly half a day and nearly 20 posts of back and forth because you are so obsessed about "copying" this "copying" that. Once again, inspiration is dead. Everything has already been done to hell and back, and if the only thing you can think of is that one thing similar - which is not the same as being identical - to another is "copying", man, save all the creatives who will never be able to create again.
That's why I asked 'at what percentage you call something a copy and past what percentage it's not', did you not understand that point? I don't walk around on forums saying 'oh character x is a copy of character y' but here, in an online art gallery it is supposed to be normal to do so. You question something about the art piece uploaded here and in so you appreciate them.
But if some pieces are a slapdash mixture or even rehash of previous famous pieces? Despite them being 'new' and 'good' it is fully understandable if someone going to pucker their eyes on those. It's not 'homage' if you take the whole concept of a character and rename them to fit a new situation. It's not 'inspiration' if all you did is make alteration from already existing piece. The closest definition, 'derivative work' isn't even fit in these kind of situation, and god forbid we're dealing into the realm of 'expy'.
WRS said:
"Air Gear", was already discussed, and you're already contradicting yourself by calling it a reference. What do you think my point has been the entire time, lol? References and inspirations are a big selling point not just in Wuthering Waves but in games as a whole. It's nice to go "hey I recognise that", or "I liked when XYZ did ths too!".
And here we go again with the stuffing words into somebody's mouth. Go look at my first reply on the topic: I never said anything about Air Gear being homaged, referenced, derivative'd or anything else.
"This one has Air Gear + Rappa from HSR written all over it."
It has elements of Air Gear, the franchise. In fact, my usage of 'reference' here is fully justified because it doesn't directly copy anything from the Air Gear series. It has the same vibe, so to speak...not alike the other examples where it's a blatant ripoff!
The proof is already there in the video. - visual effect and mechanics that's almost unique to certain other character (remember that I asked for example from another unit and nobody can give it?) - the heavy Air Gear reference - a combination of trait (blonde long hair, gyaru look, school uniform, blue necktie)
A frankenstein of traits should be called what it is. Not original, but a copy of already existing ones.
Show me side-by-sides, asshole! Like I'm five and don't know shit! Because right now I don't see it.
Show me side-by-sides, asshole! Like I'm five and don't know shit! Because right now I don't see it.
Yeah, just like you can't see that certain alchemist's shoes was solid instead of liquid. Do we need to go like that again? Because you're not contributing to the discussion.
Yeah, just like you can't see that certain alchemist's shoes was solid instead of liquid. Do we need to go like that again?
I remember you showed me some sick concept art and in-game screenshots. So, yes we do. Give me links! Give me assets! Give me your red string conspiracy corkboard!
Because you're not contributing to the discussion.
...but that doesn't make it any better, because you still inherently equate it to "copying" at different levels: which, the further it is, the less identical it is to the original, which doesn't make it a copy, that's what inspiration is.
But if some pieces are a slapdash mixture or even rehash of previous famous pieces? [..] It's not 'inspiration' if all you did is make alteration from already existing piece.
I can reach far too. Mavuika is a copy of Celty Sturluson and don't forget that she did an akira slide. Genshin Impact is just a copy of The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild. You seem to comment a lot on Genshin Impact posts, let's keep going. Why is it stealing so much from Gnosticism? Maybe it should come up with its own completely original, never-done-before plot instead. Don't call them Archons, Ancient Greece got that first. Why is Albedo ripping off the Misaka clones from Railgun?
Your point makes less and less sense the more you try and push it, and it only reveals that you're completely tunnel visioned into a "finder's keepers" mentality about how to create and design characters that may bear some similarities or otherwise from one or more thematics, concepts, characters or otherwise.
[..] even rehash of previous famous pieces? [..] The closest definition, 'derivative work' isn't even fit in these kind of situation, and god forbid we're dealing into the realm of 'expy'. [..] It has elements of Air Gear, the franchise. In fact, my usage of 'reference' here is fully justified because it doesn't directly copy anything from the Air Gear series. It has the same vibe, so to speak...not alike the other examples where it's a blatant ripoff!
...but that doesn't make it any better, because you still inherently equate it to "copying" at different levels: which, the further it is, the less identical it is to the original, which doesn't make it a copy, that's what inspiration is.
I can reach far too. Mavuika is a copy of Celty Sturluson and don't forget that she did an akira slide. Genshin Impact is just a copy of The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild. You seem to comment a lot on Genshin Impact posts, let's keep going. Why is it stealing so much from Gnosticism? Maybe it should come up with its own completely original, never-done-before plot instead. Don't call them Archons, Ancient Greece got that first. Why is Albedo ripping off the Misaka clones from Railgun?
Your point makes less and less sense the more you try and push it, and it only reveals that you're completely tunnel visioned into a "finder's keepers" mentality about how to create and design characters that may bear some similarities or otherwise from one or more thematics, concepts, characters or otherwise.
Lol. Lmao, even.
Aand here we go off topic again. If that's the best you can do to divert the question then you might want to stop replying.
at what percentage you call something a copy and past what percentage it's not.
Every accusation of yours just seems like a projection. It is not even remotely off topic; I just want you to realise how ridiculous your points sound. Talking about how your question is injected with a fallacy isn't off topic. Giving examples of how Genshin Impact, in your definition, copies other things, is not off topic, which I picked Genshin Impact because you have a lot of comments on Genshin Impact posts and seem like an avid fan of the game yet I've never seen you criticise it like you do Wuthering Waves.
Also, that you're obsessing over "percentages" and all of that, further proves my point that there's nuance to things. You want me to give you a fixed threshold of how similar something needs to be to another to differentiate a copy from an inspiration, but don't want to listen to how something isn't a copy just because you can cherrypick parts of the whole as "already done" in other games. As I've said before: what largely matters is the execution. What you're fishing for is absolute, never-ever-before-done things in an industry - gaming as a whole, not just gacha games - where inspiration is the lifeblood of everything we see today.
Real copying would lead to legal trouble. Real copying is doing very little to shake things up from anything else that's out there. Real copying is not putting any single twist on anything. If I put a flying fairy in my game and call it Paimon and add a halo to it, that's copying. If I make an elemental reaction system that has Anemo, Geo, Hydro, etc. and call the reactions Vaporize, Melt, Overloaded, etc. that's copying. If I literally steal the net code then that's not just copying, it's also theft. But if I liked what Genshin Impact did with elemental reactions and want to also do elemental reactions but change what the effects are and what they do, that's inspiration, which Neverness to Everness had during their beta test. If I want a companion that's actually secretly very plot important but for now is just a buddy, that's inspiration, as Sonic Unleashed had with Chip (Sonic).
You see why I keep saying you're moving goalposts and points? Now it's about wanting a hard, fixed point that separates one thing from being a copy (identical) from being inspired (similar but not literally that very thing), which is going to be different on a case by case basis, since you have to look at the actual thing in question. To you, Lynae is just a "frankenstein of a bunch of other things in one character". That's textbook inspiration. Liking so many things that you want to try them all out with your own twist (and if I said otherwise before, that'd be wrong, but I don't think I said otherwise).
Every accusation of yours just seems like a projection. It is not even remotely off topic; I just want you to realise how ridiculous your points sound. Talking about how your question is injected with a fallacy isn't off topic. Giving examples of how Genshin Impact, in your definition, copies other things, is not off topic, which I picked Genshin Impact because you have a lot of comments on Genshin Impact posts and seem like an avid fan of the game yet I've never seen you criticise it like you do Wuthering Waves.
Also, that you're obsessing over "percentages" and all of that, further proves my point that there's nuance to things. You want me to give you a fixed threshold of how similar something needs to be to another to differentiate a copy from an inspiration, but don't want to listen to how something isn't a copy just because you can cherrypick parts of the whole as "already done" in other games. As I've said before: what largely matters is the execution. What you're fishing for is absolute, never-ever-before-done things in an industry - gaming as a whole, not just gacha games - where inspiration is the lifeblood of everything we see today.
Real copying would lead to legal trouble. Real copying is doing very little to shake things up from anything else that's out there. Real copying is not putting any single twist on anything. If I put a flying fairy in my game and call it Paimon and add a halo to it, that's copying. If I make an elemental reaction system that has Anemo, Geo, Hydro, etc. and call the reactions Vaporize, Melt, Overloaded, etc. that's copying. If I literally steal the net code then that's not just copying, it's also theft. But if I liked what Genshin Impact did with elemental reactions and want to also do elemental reactions but change what the effects are and what they do, that's inspiration, which Neverness to Everness had during their beta test. If I want a companion that's actually secretly very plot important but for now is just a buddy, that's inspiration, as Sonic Unleashed had with Chip (Sonic).
You see why I keep saying you're moving goalposts and points? Now it's about wanting a hard, fixed point that separates one thing from being a copy (identical) from being inspired (similar but not literally that very thing), which is going to be different on a case by case basis, since you have to look at the actual thing in question. To you, Lynae is just a "frankenstein of a bunch of other things in one character". That's textbook inspiration. Liking so many things that you want to try them all out with your own twist (and if I said otherwise before, that'd be wrong, but I don't think I said otherwise).
Oh, it's really bad now, I'm so sorry. You've gotten to the point of an argument where you ask a question and don't want to listen to anything else and will actively tune it out if it doesn't fit your dichotomy of "right" and "wrong" way to answer, without bothering to even see that this in itself is an alternative answer. It's pretty telling when people reply like this; often, it's when they can't refute any more because they know some or all of their argument is failing.
Oh, it's really bad now, I'm so sorry. You've gotten to the point of an argument where you ask a question and don't want to listen to anything else and will actively tune it out if it doesn't fit your dichotomy of "right" and "wrong" way to answer, without bothering to even see that this in itself is an alternative answer. It's pretty telling when people reply like this; often, it's when they can't refute any more because they know some or all of their argument is failing.
Projecting much, eh? All those wall of texts are just accusations over accusations but no real answer. Provide the answer and I will explain. Simple as that...or is there any reason you can't answer that question?
Another good sign of a failing argument is resorting to "no you". So now we're up to "no you" and "answer it the way I want or it's not an answer". I gave you examples of real inspiration in the works both forwards and backwards, and what copying looks and sounds like. You won't take that for an answer despite it being one. Damn... it's really getting to you.
Another good sign of a failing argument is resorting to "no you". So now we're up to "no you" and "answer it the way I want or it's not an answer". I gave you examples of real inspiration in the works both forwards and backwards, and what copying looks and sounds like. You won't take that for an answer despite it being one. Damn... it's really getting to you.
Sorry, that psychology won't work. Everybody knows from the tone of your posts that you are, in fact, the one bothered by this whole conversation.
Still waiting for the answer. As I already said few comments before: if you can't answer, be silent and let other people answer.
I wish I was so bothered by this conversation that I wanted to look for an out by shutting down all conversation or doing a mic drop then refusing to reply any more, or pitching a question and then not accepting any other responses other than a specific, tailored answer to that question; refusing to further discuss any nuance or otherwise about either the question itself, or the topic as a whole. If only it got to me so bad that someone called characters from a game I like "copies" that I frothed at the mouth and took a pitchfork the moment anyone criticised it even a little, regardless of if the criticism was valid or not, without wanting to hold an open discussion about that criticism, or sharing feedback about ways that the creators of the IP can improve.
comment #2567280 - This is already my answer, but nope. Because it's not a "percentage", it's not an answer. Head scratcher.
There's only one person hyperobsessed with the idea that Wuthering Waves copies everything, and I wish I were angry enough for it to be me to see it as specifically copying something else, rather than being inspired by or sharing similar thematics.
I wish I was so bothered by this conversation that I wanted to look for an out by shutting down all conversation or doing a mic drop then refusing to reply any more, or pitching a question and then not accepting any other responses other than a specific, tailored answer to that question; refusing to further discuss any nuance or otherwise about either the question itself, or the topic as a whole. If only it got to me so bad that someone called characters from a game I like "copies" that I frothed at the mouth and took a pitchfork the moment anyone criticised it even a little, regardless of if the criticism was valid or not, without wanting to hold an open discussion about that criticism, or sharing feedback about ways that the creators of the IP can improve.
There's only one person hyperobsessed with the idea that Wuthering Waves copies everything, and I wish I were angry enough for it to be me to see it as specifically copying something else, rather than being inspired by or sharing similar thematics.
Blah blah still no answer. Who's the one hyperobsesed with projecting their vision of me? Certainly not me!
I'll leave you with comment #2567288 in that there's no such thing as a "fixed percentage" that you can assign to such a discussion like this, and with real examples of being inspired versus real scenarios of copying. Quantifying it doesn't do such a discussion proper justice because the world simply does not work in strict dichotomies of anything. I will also leave you with comment #2567283 that doing something equivalent to throwing a temper tantrum because you aren't hearing what you want to hear is a sign of a failing stance.
I'll leave you with comment #2567288 in that there's no such thing as a "fixed percentage" that you can assign to such a discussion like this, and with real examples of being inspired versus real scenarios of copying. Quantifying it doesn't do such a discussion proper justice because the world simply does not work in strict dichotomies of anything. I will also leave you with comment #2567283 that doing something equivalent to throwing a temper tantrum because you aren't hearing what you want to hear is a sign of a failing stance.
Ok, so 'still no answer' is your final answer. Then why're you still replying? Oh, because that'll put you in the loser position, eh?
Also hello too that one downvoter/upvoter that's been following this convo for hours, assuming it's not a sockpuppet. You can rest easy now that WRS has thrown the white flag.
It's more of a "if you're interested in good faith discussion again and want to reply like an adult instead of a kid throwing a temper tantrum instead (comment #2567289), then here's the point where we can continue from". This temper tantrum of yours is just bloating up the replies section. Few posts on this site can rack up >40 comments like this.
I don't mind continuing to respectfully discuss the topic of copying, inspiration, and specific examples. You, on the other hand, aren't, because you only want a number as an answer, to springboard from a logical fallacy. That's why I can keep talking about these things, and why you immediately reply with "non-answer, projection, accusations, giving up, weak, haha".
It's more of a "if you're interested in good faith discussion again and want to reply like an adult instead of a kid throwing a temper tantrum instead (comment #2567289), then here's the point where we can continue from". This temper tantrum of yours is just bloating up the replies section. Few posts on this site can rack up >40 comments like this.
I don't mind continuing to respectfully discuss the topic of copying, inspiration, and specific examples. You, on the other hand, aren't, because you only want a number as an answer, to springboard from a logical fallacy. That's why I can keep talking about these things, and why you immediately reply with "non-answer, projection, accusations, giving up, weak, haha".
Ok. Still no answer. You want to know the reason I demand numbers instead of some randomly set boundaries by individual? Well, provide the numbers based on your own premise then we'll actually talk instead of goading each other. That's already a fair trade.
Edit: now, I don't have all day to watch this comments so lemme finish my dailies and we'll talk again.
I believe that I've already given you several sufficient answers (comment #2567265, comment #2567269, comment #2567280, comment #2567293) to get an idea of what, in my opinion, constitutes inspiration and what is a real example of soulless copying. You don't want to accept any of that as an answer though, nor do you want to extrapolate anything from it. You also don't want to listen to why I think that trying to quantify this as a percentage is an exercise in futility.
In other words: you're asking me to throw out all my points and boil them down to a number just so you can be satisfied enough to want to talk again, where I will inevitably likely say the same thing again as a response. It's not that I haven't responded to you, it's that you don't want to take anything from it and discuss it.
FWIW: I get notifications on comments that I can check later. It's a helpful tool, so I just see your comments and respond to them when I'm done uploading posts or browsing the site. I don't have to watch the comments either. I can wait.
Frankly, you should have written this whole thing off the second he brought up Asuna, as if she owns the gyaru aesthetic, especially when her school girl outfit is her least well known design. Expecting a reasonable, good faith discussion at that point was just setting yourself up for disappointment.
Ok, I'm done with dailies and let me open with another question because you simply don't want to answer the very simple question.
If I can throw two pictures of different characters into a face-recognition software and it shows 99,99% match does it means one character is a copy of another or not?
And vigil, don't put another thing in my mouth. I never said anything about Asuna 'owning' gyaru aesthetic like she's the inventor: I only mentioned, per quite, 'a combination of trait (blonde long hair, gyaru look, school uniform, blue necktie)' exhibited.
No no, you should have said something. Unlike WRS who keeps pilling accusations of me only being hard on WuWa and whatnot, bunkhead who only joins for making chaos or vigil who joins the convo only to bail WRS when things goes south by demeaning the other party involved.
Now, as closing notes since nobody wants to hear the truth: the reason why I asked, and insisted on the exact measurement of 'at what percentage you call something a copy and past what percentage it's not' aren't just for throwing a solid proof of photo-referencing two pictures and judging digitally how much it resembles each other, making an objective decision instead of subjective ones like the other party has been doing all along.
People need to remember that in the first place, the reason these characters gets created is business. Not because people appreciated art, not because the dev team wants to reference something, not because they thought some characters need 'homage' or whatever. People don't care about character backstory (heck, at the moment of marketing NOBODY knows their backstory) when they looked at first reveal of a character's design; they looked at the character itself, bare of any identity other than what came visually on screen.
Yep, that's the essence of the character design. In the first place, it's impact marketing: you make them as standoutish as possible, possibly taking elements from other pre-existing ones in order to garner attention. Is it wrong to do so? Nope! As they always said, imitation is the best form of flattery, and those in marketing already know that you can steal designs, looks, even programming codes and whatsoever up until the other party gets mad and started suing.
There's a good reason why copyrights infringement lawsuit always starts with reviewing the agreement of fair use: the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; the nature of the work, if copyrighted; the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and (emphasis added) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work. In this case, does the created character poses any of these to the other copyrighted party? I'll leave the answer to you, but we still have things to discuss.
Like my art teacher said long ago, "an original has worth because it exists, but a copy only worth because there's an original". By copying another, more popular and known works (of art or whatsoever) you undoubtly will gain more attention than if you just create an original piece. It's a simple, very logical, and understandably easy way to make your own work gets recognized yet on the same time a lazy and rather unprincipled way to create profit.
Now, before someone else barged in and shouted "It's not copying! It's referencing/paying homage/taking inspiration-"
And I must say "you go to the nearest art school, talk to the teacher who has taught people for more than 20 years, actually produced piece of art themself and ask what's the difference between them and copying" since they will laugh at you and say "those are just fancy words for copying". Sure, there would be few minute details between them, but again, it all boils down to how different the end results from the original, which returns to the previous point: 'at what percentage you call something a copy and past what percentage it's not'
If somebody took the concept of Hestia and make her a black skinned, plump lady like in Hades II? That's not copying, that's the result of artistic interpretation.
If somebody took the story of King Arthur, genderbent him and put the resulting character in Holy Grail War? That's not copying, that's putting a reference.
If somebody liked a character so much, they included them in their own created story? Depending on what degree of alikeness with the original character, how often they appear and their significance in the story, it could be a cameo or -insert type of character. You can also call this 'being inspired' as long as the new character wasn't a blatant copy of another...like there's many manhwas that included Sung Jin-Woo 'degraded copy' as meme or part of funny background event after the success of Solo Leveling, but to reach the level of 'paying homage' then the alike-character (can also be expy at this point, if they have similar naming to the other character) must at least have an active role and lasting impact on the storyline.
About 'paying homage', this is a rather unique situation where there's actually a very wide berth of interpretation how and what it could be (like you can build a Goth-styled building and say it's paying homage to the original Vlad the Impaler and nobody would ask why), but in a very strict sense of 'creating something based on x' creating a character that is exact copy down to mannerism, backstory and powers would actually fit the criteria of being an expy instead. Sorry, but that's not going to pass in the court.
Okay, that's enough rant about originality and whatnot. Maybe I'll continue in another post, maybe not.
Edit: well lookie here, somebody's addicted to downvoting!
Oh, I thought you don't want to talk to me anymore? I'm replying to burnmysong, not you, so why are you criticizing me because you don't want to answer the question? It's always 1:1 reply rule, you provide answer and I would too.
Guess who didn't want to answer? Certainly not me. You simply don't EARN that answer.
And oh gosh, you're soooo into me that you delve into the history of my comment banning...to pick such a scab, must really be 'obsessed to be the last commenter' as you projected. Do you even know the context of the banning? Have you asked a mod who banned me for the reason other than 'oh, this guy has been banned. Must've been talking shit'.
Like, what's the point of marking every other post with genshin_impact and other series' link? That's 5 extra character per two word; surely someone want to show the other readers...nah, I won't stoop down to your level of personal attacks, that's just not worth it. Already knowing you guys used vote manipulation tactics already laughable enough.
