Breath of the Wild Link is weird. I mean, does he even have a title? I can't remember. It's almost like the game wanted to make Zelda the hero.
He's suppose to be the Princess' Knight(which is also the King's knight), the chosen champion of the legendary Hero's sword, the "leader" of the Champions(although Zelda actually leads them), master of the 5th divine beast(although he doesn't get one til later after the trials), etc,etc,etc.
At least those were his title back during the days. After Hyrule was wrecked and everyone died, I don't think a title matters.
But yes, Zelda is always the hero. That's why it's call Legend of Zelda, instead of the Legend of the Mute Blonde Crazy Elf that runs around naked and sets stuff on fire.
He's suppose to be the Princess' Knight(which is also the King's knight), the chosen champion of the legendary Hero's sword, the "leader" of the Champions(although Zelda actually leads them), master of the 5th divine beast(although he doesn't get one til later after the trials), etc,etc,etc.
At least those were his title back during the days. After Hyrule was wrecked and everyone died, I don't think a title matters.
But yes, Zelda is always the hero. That's why it's call Legend of Zelda, instead of the Legend of the Mute Blonde Crazy Elf that runs around naked and sets stuff on fire.
He's suppose to be the Princess' Knight(which is also the King's knight), the chosen champion of the legendary Hero's sword, the "leader" of the Champions(although Zelda actually leads them), master of the 5th divine beast(although he doesn't get one til later after the trials), etc,etc,etc.
At least those were his title back during the days. After Hyrule was wrecked and everyone died, I don't think a title matters.
But yes, Zelda is always the hero. That's why it's call Legend of Zelda, instead of the Legend of the Mute Blonde Crazy Elf that runs around naked and sets stuff on fire.
Ha...no, Zelda is not the hero of the story. She's the one who fails to maintain the status quo and needs Link to come in and save things. Breath of the Wild Zelda is the first one we've seen who failed due to sheer incompetence. She really is the most wretched Zelda we've ever seen.
And every Link needs a title to distinguish him from the rest. Hero of Time, Hero of the Winds, Hero of Twilight, Hero of...the Sky?
Ha...no, Zelda is not the hero of the story. She's the one who fails to maintain the status quo and needs Link to come in and save things. Breath of the Wild Zelda is the first one we've seen who failed due to sheer incompetence. She really is the most wretched Zelda we've ever seen.
And every Link needs a title to distinguish him from the rest. Hero of Time, Hero of the Winds, Hero of Twilight, Hero of...the Sky?
I mean, we could say the same thing about Link. He's the only canon Link to get the shit kicked out of him onscreen. Even the defeat timeline of the Ocarina only said that Link failed to stop Ganon (which could just mean he was too busy fucking around breaking pots and probably died to the Cuccos after pissing them off).
If anything, Zelda was unfortunately the one who HELD the status quo after she trapped Calamity Ganon in the castle.
I personally think she's the most different Zelda from all the rest of the games, since most times those Zeldas have little to no personality(save for the variants like Tetra or Skyward Zelda) and are already powerful as heck yet still completely useless and lazy bitches. She's really the only "human" Zelda, since she struggled as much as Link did. Infact, Link was ultimately just some Gary Stu and Deux Ex Machina to save Hyrule since all we know about him was that he was the strongest Knight since he was young, chosen wielder of the Master Sword, etc.etc.etc.
Zelda on the otherhand we see her struggle through her entire life, trying her best to live up to everyone's expectation of her awakening her power to save all of Hyrule in the coming dark times and failing. You saw in the memories how how desperately she tries to prove herself that she's not a failure and how she is trapped between duty and unable to fulfill that duty. In the first memory, the knighting of Link, we even hear about how she thought SHE was the chosen hero and saw how she hated Link because of his seemingly perfection and chosen. And her's being the only story we get to see, it really does seem more like it was the Legend of Zelda with Link being so much as a stand-in for the viewers. He talked as much as a walking camera anyway, closer to a background painting than anything.
Titlewise, I'm guessing since we're getting a second game, Link will probably get a title in the next one after they rebuild Hyrule.
I mean, we could say the same thing about Link. He's the only canon Link to get the shit kicked out of him onscreen. Even the defeat timeline of the Ocarina only said that Link failed to stop Ganon (which could just mean he was too busy fucking around breaking pots and probably died to the Cuccos after pissing them off).
If anything, Zelda was unfortunately the one who HELD the status quo after she trapped Calamity Ganon in the castle.
I personally think she's the most different Zelda from all the rest of the games, since most times those Zeldas have little to no personality(save for the variants like Tetra or Skyward Zelda) and are already powerful as heck yet still completely useless and lazy bitches. She's really the only "human" Zelda, since she struggled as much as Link did. Infact, Link was ultimately just some Gary Stu and Deux Ex Machina to save Hyrule since all we know about him was that he was the strongest Knight since he was young, chosen wielder of the Master Sword, etc.etc.etc.
Zelda on the otherhand we see her struggle through her entire life, trying her best to live up to everyone's expectation of her awakening her power to save all of Hyrule in the coming dark times and failing. You saw in the memories how how desperately she tries to prove herself that she's not a failure and how she is trapped between duty and unable to fulfill that duty. In the first memory, the knighting of Link, we even hear about how she thought SHE was the chosen hero and saw how she hated Link because of his seemingly perfection and chosen. And her's being the only story we get to see, it really does seem more like it was the Legend of Zelda with Link being so much as a stand-in for the viewers. He talked as much as a walking camera anyway, closer to a background painting than anything.
Titlewise, I'm guessing since we're getting a second game, Link will probably get a title in the next one after they rebuild Hyrule.
You'd have a point about the characterization of Zelda in Breath of the Wild if the game didn't basically ignored why she failed and made every excuse for her, throwing a pity party for her every chance they got, and the fact that despite having the Triforce, she still couldn't save the day. She literally has the series Ex Machina in the palm of her hand and she can't do anything with it but hold the evil at bay?
Most Links get their asses handed to them at some point in the journey. The Hero of Time got punked by Ganondorf after he conquered the castle and Zelda fled. The Skull Kid humiliated him quite badly in Majora's Mask. The Hero of the Winds is the constant butt of jokes and is no match whatsoever for Ganondorf, despite all of his efforts. The Hero of Twilight has his friends kidnapped right in front of him, Midna toys with him constantly at the beginning, and Zant delivers the most crushing defeat a Link has ever received.
No. Where BotW Link really fails is that...he really doesn't serve any narrative purpose. Links in the past have all have one thing in common; they are the wielder of the sacred blade, Evil's Bane, the Master Sword. And yet...that particular piece of equipment is entirely optional and unnecessary in BotW.
Link in Breath of the Wild is completely emasculated. And he has no personality whatsoever. We haven't had such a blank Link in more than 20 years. Even when he should emote, based on what we're told about him, he doesn't. The only time in the whole game he really reacts to anything is when he's forced to crossdress.
P.S. All the Zeldas had personalities. Ocarina Zelda had 3 personalities; one as a child, one as Shiek, and one as herself, the 7th Sage and Bearer of the Triforce. Twilight Zelda was regal and stoic. She didn't behave overdramatically and played as a counterpart to Midna.
You'd have a point about the characterization of Zelda in Breath of the Wild if the game didn't basically ignored why she failed and made every excuse for her, throwing a pity party for her every chance they got, and the fact that despite having the Triforce, she still couldn't save the day. She literally has the series Ex Machina in the palm of her hand and she can't do anything with it but hold the evil at bay?
Most Links get their asses handed to them at some point in the journey. The Hero of Time got punked by Ganondorf after he conquered the castle and Zelda fled. The Skull Kid humiliated him quite badly in Majora's Mask. The Hero of the Winds is the constant butt of jokes and is no match whatsoever for Ganondorf, despite all of his efforts. The Hero of Twilight has his friends kidnapped right in front of him, Midna toys with him constantly at the beginning, and Zant delivers the most crushing defeat a Link has ever received.
No. Where BotW Link really fails is that...he really doesn't serve any narrative purpose. Links in the past have all have one thing in common; they are the wielder of the sacred blade, Evil's Bane, the Master Sword. And yet...that particular piece of equipment is entirely optional and unnecessary in BotW.
Link in Breath of the Wild is completely emasculated. And he has no personality whatsoever. We haven't had such a blank Link in more than 20 years. Even when he should emote, based on what we're told about him, he doesn't. The only time in the whole game he really reacts to anything is when he's forced to crossdress.
P.S. All the Zeldas had personalities. Ocarina Zelda had 3 personalities; one as a child, one as Shiek, and one as herself, the 7th Sage and Bearer of the Triforce. Twilight Zelda was regal and stoic. She didn't behave overdramatically and played as a counterpart to Midna.
Yeah, I agree the BOTW Link is really bland and nothing more than a blank slate, although they might have attempted to add some bits and pieces of his personality. For example; in the Japanese version the quest journal is suppose to be Link's journal, where we see him writing down notes of his travels and his thoughts on the quests but they did a diservice by cutting it out in the international releases. The real problem is that because they try to keep the whole silent protagonist bit, it robs us of an actual character. We call him Link, but he really is more of a standin than anything and no matter what personality you try to add to him via game, ultimately he's just a cutout for the players, but I think that was suppose to be the point.
It also doesn't help that it's an open world game, which sacrifices a coherent driving narrative for free-roaming "player choice" which always is a bit bullshit. It's why I'm not usually a fan of openworld or Ubisoft games. Even if the players themselves can make up a story, it isn't the same as an actual story with actual charactetization.
I think that was why they tried so hard to instead focus the story on Zelda and the Champions, because they are actual characters within the world. I actually like the story direction they went with Zelda, that despite her having all the power in the world she was still unable to use it. It looks like incompetence but I say it really adds to how it shows how human it is. Her entire story even she knew she was completely useless, which was why she tried so hard on everything else like her research on the Guardians and Divine technologies. Personally, I think it kinda went kaput though after she got her Deux Ex powers, cause afterwords she did just become another voice in the sky and such.
Hopefully, the second game would be much better. I really do want to see the interaction between the two, which brings me memories of Windwaker and Phantom hourglass.
The real problem with Zelda in BotW is that she has a flaw, a fatal flaw, and they ignore it. Not only do they ignore it, they act like the flaw isn't a flaw, and that she was right all along by the end of the game, learning nothing from her experiences and the consequences of her failure. She's *eager* to follow the path she'd always wanted for herself.
She is a selfish, whiny, brat spitting on the graves of her kingdom and friends. The only reason people like her is because she's cute and sorrowful, and they empathize with her wish for freedom, damn the consequences and her heritage.
But she has a nice ass, that's what matters, right?
Ha...no, Zelda is not the hero of the story. She's the one who fails to maintain the status quo and needs Link to come in and save things. Breath of the Wild Zelda is the first one we've seen who failed due to sheer incompetence. She really is the most wretched Zelda we've ever seen.
And every Link needs a title to distinguish him from the rest. Hero of Time, Hero of the Winds, Hero of Twilight, Hero of...the Sky?
Blaming Zelda for her father's incompetence is an amazing move Steak. It was her father who refused to agree with her idea to update the guardians, and it was her father who made her try and brute force her gift instead of trying to find a replacement teacher when her mother died.
Blaming Zelda for her father's incompetence is an amazing move Steak. It was her father who refused to agree with her idea to update the guardians, and it was her father who made her try and brute force her gift instead of trying to find a replacement teacher when her mother died.
Zelda's refusal to let go of her childish attachments and grow up is what lead to their downfall. She liked studying machines and the natural world and believed in that nonsense, rather than the spiritual legacy of her family. She even curses her lineage at one point, condemning it, all because she wanted to look at frogs instead.
She suffered her spiritual training. She viewed it as a chore. In her heart of hearts, she resisted and resented it, perpetuating a miserable cycle of failure. She expected the power of the gods to obey her selfish whims.
The king was right. She cared more about her studies than anything. She allowed herself to be distracted. She was cursed by her own curiosity regarding the technological wonders they'd unearthed. It was new, it was exciting, quite at odds with the traditions she was expected to uphold.
And yet...despite the game laying all that out, plain as day, everyone excuses her and accepts the blame. It's not poor little Zelda's fault. Oh no. She's perfect and wonderful.
They could have had a good story with a good character in Zelda. She could have actually had a character arc. She could have actually learned a lesson, an incredibly painful and costly one, something that no one, especially one so young should ever have to learn, but she would have been all the greater for having learned it.
But the game let's her have her cake and eat it to. She's amazing and she's not at all at fault. What a wonderful example of a Mary F-ing Sue.
Zelda's refusal to let go of her childish attachments and grow up is what lead to their downfall. She liked studying machines and the natural world and believed in that nonsense, rather than the spiritual legacy of her family. She even curses her lineage at one point, condemning it, all because she wanted to look at frogs instead.
She suffered her spiritual training. She viewed it as a chore. In her heart of hearts, she resisted and resented it, perpetuating a miserable cycle of failure. She expected the power of the gods to obey her selfish whims.
The king was right. She cared more about her studies than anything. She allowed herself to be distracted. She was cursed by her own curiosity regarding the technological wonders they'd unearthed. It was new, it was exciting, quite at odds with the traditions she was expected to uphold.
And yet...despite the game laying all that out, plain as day, everyone excuses her and accepts the blame. It's not poor little Zelda's fault. Oh no. She's perfect and wonderful.
They could have had a good story with a good character in Zelda. She could have actually had a character arc. She could have actually learned a lesson, an incredibly painful and costly one, something that no one, especially one so young should ever have to learn, but she would have been all the greater for having learned it.
But the game let's her have her cake and eat it to. She's amazing and she's not at all at fault. What a wonderful example of a Mary F-ing Sue.
Which doesn't fit the narrative they were establishing at all. I really think at some point in development, they completely revamped Breath of the Wild's story, abandoning what they were going to do and stitching together and editing what they had into the monstrosity we got. Partly because their ambition outstripped their ability, but also because I think they choked. Telling gamers that science and technology isn't the answer to everything is heresy.
And that's only half of what players would have found objectionable about Zelda's original story. Nintendo gave up and decided go with the most crowd pleasing route; emphasis on Zelda's smile and ass. That'll distract the fanboys from thinking too much.
Which doesn't fit the narrative they were establishing at all. I really think at some point in development, they completely revamped Breath of the Wild's story, abandoning what they were going to do and stitching together and editing what they had into the monstrosity we got. Partly because their ambition outstripped their ability, but also because I think they choked. Telling gamers that science and technology isn't the answer to everything is heresy.
And that's only half of what players would have found objectionable about Zelda's original story. Nintendo gave up and decided go with the most crowd pleasing route; emphasis on Zelda's smile and ass. That'll distract the fanboys from thinking too much.
Or, and hear me out. You're an asshole who complains about shit no one cares about.
ZELDA IN BOTW IS A SHITTY CHARACTER BECAUSE SHE WANTED TO LEARN THINGS AND NOT BE A VAPID PLOT DEVICE.
TIFA SUCKS IN FFVIR BECAUSE SHE'S ALMOST EXACTLY THE SAME BUT HAS BEEN FLESHED OUT WITH A PERSONALITY THAT VIOLATES MY HEAD CANON OF HER.
Here is a textbook example of someone making themselves dumb because they lean on buzz words and insults.
Is it though? I don't care much for a some of the things cd young posts or the way they expess themsleves somtimes, but while I think as they comment their post is a bit childish I'm not seeing any stupidity or "buzz words". Just them accurately calling out your behaviour.
Its been a while since I played the game so I'm a bit fuzzy on the details, but wasn't there something that you could only awake the divine powers by being true to yourself, or something among those lines? So In this case I would say its the kings mistake since he tried to force Zelda to fit his image of the princess instead of what the princess actually was. There's also still blame to be put on Zelda but I think the biggest problem is the combined effort of them to keep trying the same shit again and expecting it to work. I am no theologist or Zelda expert but I do think that if you keep trying to make someone awaken divine powers at any cost and it doesn't work at all, a rereading of the holy texts might be in order to figure out if there are more options or things you missed.
Still, she should have admitted her feelings for Link since there's no shame in liking the ass on that dude.
Is it though? I don't care much for a some of the things cd young posts or the way they expess themsleves somtimes, and I while think as they comment their post is a bit childish I'm not seeing any stupidity or "buzz words". Just them accurately calling out your behaviour.
"Accurately", you say? Let's put that to the test.
You're an asshole who complains about shit no one cares about.
Asshole is an insult. It might be an accurate descriptor of me or my behavior, but only in the sense that I don't particularly care about making others upset. Which is, believe it or not, not the same as not caring about their feelings.
"Shit no one cares about"? I think everyone cares about story and characters on some level. Some more than others. And even if "the shit" he's referring to is my opinion, then obviously...I am a "one" who cares about it. That I'm sometimes hard-pressed to find people who agree with me in some circles is neither here nor there.
ZELDA IN BOTW IS A SHITTY CHARACTER BECAUSE SHE WANTED TO LEARN THINGS AND NOT BE A VAPID PLOT DEVICE.
That's not an accurate assessment of my argument at all. For one thing, supposing her interest in science technology was the answer to their prayers and not the spiritual power of her ancestors...then she'd still be a plot-device. And Zelda in BotW wanted to learn about things other than what she was *supposed* to be learning about, that she was uniquely qualified to understand and attain. No one in the entire world could do what Zelda could do, but she didn't want to do it and everyone paid the price.
Zelda was conflicted. She wanted one thing, while she was supposed to be doing another. It's a classic textbook example of a character flaw leading to a fall, but the game doesn't follow through on that set up. She neither accepts responsibility for her failure nor do others criticize her for it. Everyone babies her and by the end of the game, she's happy to be rid of the spiritual power she loathed her whole life. Emphasis is routinely placed on how cute she is, how nice her smile is, how nice her ass is. It's an obvious distraction from what's wrong with her.
TIFA SUCKS IN FFVIR BECAUSE SHE'S ALMOST EXACTLY THE SAME BUT HAS BEEN FLESHED OUT WITH A PERSONALITY THAT VIOLATES MY HEAD CANON OF HER.
That's not at all true. Tifa's completely different. Even in scenes they otherwise recreate verbatim, she's changed. Basically none of the scenes featuring Tifa in the original game survived intact. Didn't matter how iconic the scene was, didn't matter how important it was to her characterization.
Head canon is a buzz word. It's often used as a justification to avoid actually engaging someone else in an argument. It's evocation is intended to galvanize people sympathetic to his position against the opposite.
WAH WAH WAH.
Childish I know but seriously.
If he's referring to himself as childish, I'd be hard-pressed to argue otherwise. If he's referring to me as childish, maybe, if caring about writing and how characters are portrayed in a story and it's full-context is childish. Honestly, you probably have to be a bit childish to visit a site like Danbooru.
Steak said: If he's referring to himself as childish, I'd be hard-pressed to argue otherwise. If he's referring to me as childish, maybe, if caring about writing and how characters are portrayed in a story and it's full-context is childish. Honestly, you probably have to be a bit childish to visit a site like Danbooru.
Oh no, I fully accept that my post is completely childish. I called you names, I whined like a baby and I satirized your incessant complaining that Zelda wasn't being what you thought she should have been in the game.
And your argument is the flawed one. She wanted to awaken her power because it was the *only thing* that could defeat the Calamity. But since she lost her only teacher, her father decided to use the texts alone to try and force her powers to activate. Eventually her powers did activate but in a moment where Zelda, not in an act of compliance, but defiance (as in believing in herself and her conviction to save Link as opposed to doing it because she's supposed to like her father forced on her), saved Link's life.
Inversely, her love for science and learned also lead her to the ancient texts about the first Calamity. and how it corrupted some of the guardians, and then was *sealed with them* and she rightly suggested they do something to update them. but was rebuffed by her father again, who instead activated them without having scholars look them over which directly caused the destruction of his kingdom, the deaths of thousands and the world as it is.
Zelda is flawed, no one debated that, what people are saying is that your interpretation of her flaws are stupid.
I didn't really want to say anything because I believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion and interpretations, their like and dislike of characters, but I do not believe you are completely correct in your assessment of BOTW's Zelda.
Long Text
The thing about Zelda was that, she wasn't "perfect" or "wonderful" in any of the sense but instead that was only the perception of the NPCs in the world and rightfully so, because it was part of the story. Zelda, being the Princess with the Divine Power and viewed as greatly by the people was part of the reason why she was like so in her own story.
From the entire story itself, what we see from Zelda, her life has been more or less miserable. It was shown that the reason why she suffered so much wasn't because she was "childish" or "didn't want to grow up" but instead the opposite that she was forced to grow up whether she want to or not. It was said when she was only a little girl, her mother died and she could not even show grief because of her royal duty and instead forced herself to be strong despite the pain eating at her. She was then told that she, and only she, had the Divine power to seal away an upcoming Calamity Ganon that was to destroy her world. We see from an young age, she was already thrown into a whirlpool of pressure and duty and she was actually all alone in all this. She had no guide, no support and the only the weight of the entire kingdom on her shoulder. Even Urbosa, although was caring and motherly to her, was still an outsider and could not provide any help on what she had to do. All of this, combined her her years of failed efforts to awaken her power was what caused her to hate herself.
BOTW Zelda viewed herself as a complete failure and she could not accept that. She hated herself, for being useless in unable to fulfill her destiny, but still wanted to do everything she could because she knew she must to the point of almost self-harm, as we were told she once almost passed out in the freezing Spring and the amount of time she got into danger.
It was shown multiple times that she has great pride and a powerful sense of responsibility but it was the years and years of failure to unlock her power that drove her to such self-hatred evident by her disdain for Link when they met. She viewed him as someone that, while just like her with a similar destiny, he was able to effortlessly do what she tried so hard but could not. We also saw when she cursed at the Goddess Spring(in the JP she just asked why) she broke down and cried while begging for an answer as to what was wrong with her, not because she was angry at the Goddess but at herself for not living up to her Grandmother and Mother's legacy.
I also think her talk with Link in the rain explains it perfectly how she viewed herself and her responsibilities. She asked Link what he would do if everyone around him told him that he must be a Knight, and that if he must oblige due to his linage, but that no matter what he was just unable to but he still must even if he couldn't. It was a representation of how she thought of herself; that she has no choice but to do as everyone and duty told, even if she could not, but she still must and she could not accept herself that she couldn't.
Zelda's character arc and development was about her moving to accepting herself, and Link played a crucial part in it. She foolishly held the idea that because she must, she has to be the one to stop Ganon no matter what. It was why she created the Champions, who were "perfect" and "wonderful" in her eyes, that she personally lead. She wanted to do something that she believe was all on her own, that she could actually succeed in unlike her Divine Power that she had no control or idea on because she could not accept the idea that she was unable to do anything, that she was a failure.
It was also why she focused so much on her study of Divine Technoloy as well. While in part it was a way for her to run away, it was also what she felt that she might actually be contributing. She could not stand the idea of being idle and continued to despised herself for failing to the point that she wanted to do anything else to prove that she CAN succeed no matter what, as we heard from the King of how everyone was talking behind Zelda's back calling her a Princess of Nothing.
To tell the truth, I agree the whole power thing after she awakened it kinda devolved her a bit but I think that was her finally accepting Link as someone she could rely on what helped brought out her power and even then, after she got her power she did not just run head on to fight Ganon but instead focused herself on saving Link because she finally understand despite her great power there was still limitations and that she needs him.
At the end of the story, we do see a bit of change in her personality. She spoke of how her power was fading but she was willing to accept that, and spoke of rebuilding Hyrule requiring the effort of everyone evidently showing her now understanding on the reliance of other people, that she can't be all powerful and she was okay with that, showing that she at least let go some of her self-loathing and was genuinely happy thanks to Link.
I don't think BOTW Zelda is in anyway a Mary Sue. She did suffer long and hard on her journey to become who she was. While nobody blames or fault her ingame, we could see that the person who was the most hard on her was herself. Her pride, her misguided views on herself and self-hatred does come back to bite her, with her punishment being the total annihilation of her Kingdom.
But yes, it is hard to see the story with the way the game was played. Although BOTW was amazing, I really think the idea of total freedom for the players in an open world really does sacrifice a coherent and well thought out narrative yet I still think that they did as well as they could.
Personally, I like this Zelda because she was very human. Her plot, her development was something very real and relatable and personally, I like her because she was indeed a strong character but with flaws that made sense, not just because of her delicious thicc b00ty. With the upcoming game, we will get to see more of her character hopefully, which will be nice. Although I hope they don't do what most sequels do and squander it all for the sake of a new story.
