Well topic #32523 didn't go anywhere, so it's time to try again, and hopefully this time something can happen. These tags are still highly specific and easily replaced with a "Character + Game" search, so off with their heads I think.
My main issue right now is figuring out what to do with the various Peach and Daisy sport tags that suffer the same issue, but was a critical obstacle in my goal to nuke these tags. My idea then was to lump them into a single sport costume tag that can then be further specified with a game tag, and I still prefer that idea, but let's see if anything's changed since the last attempt.
Mario's and Luigi's outfits will reappear in Mario Tennis Fever, and with the appearance of Baby Wario and Baby Waluigi it's clear Wario and Waluigi will of course show up as well, so it's likely that Wario's and Waluigi's will also reappear. This tells me that these outfits might be becoming standardized for the male characters going forward at least for the Camelot tennis games (similar to how long ago the female outfits became standardized), so for future proofing it'd be best to instead rename them and get rid of the specific game qualifier and just use the more broad Mario Tennis copyright tagging for most images that feature them that don't call back to specific elements of each game aside from the outfit.
This outfit appears in 3 games (4 including Mario Tennis Fever), I see less reason for it to be nuked at this point. It needs a rename to get rid of the game specific qualifier to a more generic one. In fact I think most images that are specifically tagged Mario Tennis: Ultra Smash or Mario Tennis Aces just for this design should be removed (unless the image calls back to specific mechanics, locations or elements of said games) and instead a more broad Mario Tennis.
As I said in the previous thread, I'm fine with compromising, so I'll compromise with the nuking of these. My view on how Mario tagging should be is that if an non-power up outfit only appears in one game it'd be best to just keep it under a copyright, if it starts to reappear outside of that it should get a character tag. Especially the Mario Party 2 outfits, I doubt they will ever reappear again. The Super Rush outfits might reappear again if Camelot makes another Golf game down the line but that can be revisited if it ever comes to pass, I'm fine with nuking them in the meantime as the Mario Golf: Super Rush copyright works fine for now.
Mario's and Luigi's outfits will reappear in Mario Tennis Fever, and with the appearance of Baby Wario and Baby Waluigi it's clear Wario and Waluigi will of course show up as well, so it's likely that Wario's and Waluigi's will also reappear. This tells me that these outfits might be becoming standardized for the male characters going forward at least for the Camelot tennis games (similar to how long ago the female outfits became standardized), so for future proofing it'd be best to instead rename them and get rid of the specific game qualifier and just use the more broad Mario Tennis copyright tagging for most images that feature them that don't call back to specific elements of each game aside from the outfit.
Hm...If they do become standardized, then I suppose the copytag in question would delegate up to the umbrella Mario Tennis tag (which is why I'm still pro nuking the Rosalina tags). Alternatively though, since I'm going to propose it for Peach and Daisy once I kill the most extraenous of these tags, we could try using a general "Character (Sports)" costume tag for everyone in order to avoid hyper specific tags but still keep general sports costumes findable. As my beef with these tags as it stands is being easily replaced with "Character + Game". If they were more generic umbrella tags furthered refined through the game tags, I wouldn't have the problem I have with them.
pc88 said:
As I said in the previous thread, I'm fine with compromising, so I'll compromise with the nuking of these. My view on how Mario tagging should be is that if an non-power up outfit only appears in one game it'd be best to just keep it under a copyright, if it starts to reappear outside of that it should get a character tag. Especially the Mario Party 2 outfits, I doubt they will ever reappear again. The Super Rush outfits might reappear again if Camelot makes another Golf game down the line but that can be revisited if it ever comes to pass, I'm fine with nuking them in the meantime as the Mario Golf: Super Rush copyright works fine for now.
Yeah, I totally get this perspective. Which is why I'm trying to figure out a good compromise to this conundrum, as if people do get legitimate use out of any of these tags, that alone is enough reason to halt the nuke plans and try a different strategy.
Alternatively though, since I'm going to propose it for Peach and Daisy once I kill the most extraenous of these tags, we could try using a general "Character (Sports)" costume tag for everyone in order to avoid hyper specific tags but still keep general sports costumes findable. As my beef with these tags as it stands is being easily replaced with "Character + Game". If they were more generic umbrella tags furthered refined through the game tags, I wouldn't have the problem I have with them.
As a last resort we could consolidate the generic sports (mainly all golf + tennis) dress and shorts into a single tag and have the Wiki provide the needed info. This could also include the retro designs to my chagrin, even though I worry this will bury them and bloat the tag a tiny bit.
So using Peach as an example, since she has the most, it'd be all of these designs under a single (sports) tag:
I do find it to be a bit much to throw everything into this one tag, hence why I still have some preference to the retro designs and modern designs being separate (also since the retro designs share more similarity with her normal design visually and with the puffy short sleeves, but if it's the only way to get people to agree somewhat and have mods decide something then so be it.
I do find it to be a bit much to throw everything into this one tag, hence why I still have some preference to the retro designs and modern designs being separate (also since the retro designs share more similarity with her normal design visually and with the puffy short sleeves, but if it's the only way to get people to agree somewhat and have mods decide something then so be it.
Yeah, considering how much a long runner the Mario series is, I too would rather keep the retro designs split from the modern designs for the same reason (as if I want to see retro designs, I want to be able to search retro with no issues and not get the modern design unless the retro design is there too). I think your idea is pretty solid in regards to what I had in mind, though I still wanna try seeing if I can keep the retro designs split. I'll still propose consolidating all of them into a single tag however, as if that's what get the BUR passed, it's what gets the BUR passed. Annoying, but it is what it is.
This is the BUR I'd personally prefer as a proposal to the idea, as I really do think the crowd searching for retro designs is different from modern (which if lumped together, would result in searchability problems for said retro crowd). It's to the point I kinda wanna try proposing a tag for Peach's retro dress design (which cannot be easily searched for as of the moment).
Here's the alternative if we really want to lump the retro designs in with the modern (I don't). Either way, if we consolidate these hyper-specific tags into an overarching tag, then further refined searchwise through copytags, this should resolve the Mario sporttag dilemma.
Peach here is once again our proof of concept. If either BUR goes through, I'll go ahead and run them for Daisy. And then we can figure out what we wanna do with the rest.
I wonder if all our debating from forum #338346 to forum #342987, over to topic #32523, and now to here has just resulted in this topic getting put on the backburner, especially as it's a lot of reading for a comparatively unimportant topic (compared to the more nutty, yet more important to sort out for organizational purposes QOS thread, topic #34116).
Now that NNT's back, maybe we can finally get an answer (and also get the inoffensive BURs in topic #26254 approved), but we might have to wait a bit longer.
I wonder if all our debating from forum #338346 to forum #342987, over to topic #32523, and now to here has just resulted in this topic getting put on the backburner, especially as it's a lot of reading for a comparatively unimportant topic (compared to the more nutty, yet more important to sort out for organizational purposes QOS thread, topic #34116).
Now that NNT's back, maybe we can finally get an answer (and also get the inoffensive BURs in topic #26254 approved), but we might have to wait a bit longer.
Yeah. I just want a decision made here, even if it's one I dislike, just so we can finally clean up these tags.
I'll repropose two of the BURs and then leave the rest of the tags up for debate. Last time, we had left the issue of the Super Rush costumes up to debate because of the potential of the Mario Golf games in the future, so I think it'd be best to leave them out of a BUR like this.
In the previous thread, we had come to an agreement that the "Sports Shorts" and "Sports Dress" designs (represented by 'Summer Sports' and 'Hoops 3-on-3', and 'Toadstool Tour', for Peach and Daisy respectively), were appearance-wise so similar that you could just lump them together under the same tag, titled "Sports" (distinguishing from the "Classic Sports" and "Winter Sports" tags).
To avoid bogging down this BUR, this focuses purely on the Mario Party 2 costumes. As of writing, Mario Party 2 has 23 posts. None of these costumes have reappeared since, and it is not hard to search for when you're aware.
When it comes to the 'discoverability' issue, they can still be listed in the wikis of the respective characters, the costumes would just link to the copytag instead.
Seperating this out because I was reminded by pc88's original list that this costume did appear in Mario Sports Superstars. That tag is currently represented only by official art, but someone could technically upload fanart representing her in that game in specific, so I think that removes its nukeability. We should still go ahead with the plan to flatten the copytag on her posts though to just be Mario Tennis unless a specific game is applicable.
I'm punting these off to a later date. The main issue we run into with the prospect of nuking these and just using the Mario Tennis tag is the fact that these are newer costumes that have only started appearing from Tennis Aces onward, so I'm going to do this, proposing the qualifier of (modern_tennis) and we can debate on nuking or implying them later.
Another reason why I'm proposing this is because it establishes a (modern_*) format we could later use for the Super Rush costumes if Camelot makes another Golf game and reuses them. Due to the existence of Mario (Golf) and Luigi (Golf), and them being officially called that, we can't just give Mario (Super Rush) and Luigi (Super Rush) 'Golf' qualifiers, so if we choose to keep them we'd need something else, like 'Modern Golf'.
